TRAVELLER Digest 517

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Crunch Guns by broussa@ConnectI.com (David C. Broussard)
  2) RCVG: A little spoiler speculation... by Bri <bri@teleport.com>
  3) RE: Crunch Guns by That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
  4) Re:  TRAVELLER digest 516 by Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
  5) Re: Guns (Td#516) by Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
  6) Re: TRAVELLER digest 516 by toad@ugcs.caltech.edu (Benjamin Lane)

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Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:12:29 -0600
From: broussa@ConnectI.com (David C. Broussard)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Crunch Guns
Message-ID: <9512162212.AA17284@ConnectI.com>

FF&S really breaks down when designing large caliber and small caliber
weapons.  They make no allowence for materials technology really.  Like what
if I want a wooden stock, or how about a composite laminate receiver, or a
non-mettalic weapon?  These things just aren't addressed, then again
compared to the Shadowrun Design system HA!, GURPS, HO, or any other game
(Rifts anyone? hehehehheheheh) FF&S is the best hands down.  I mean at least
we CAN argue about its failings, when most systems just don't have a system
to argue about.

BTW: has anyone used 3G's weapons design system.  I have it, and am planning
on trying it out over the holiday (I only get the 25th off).  I will let you
know!

David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
-----------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:48:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RCVG: A little spoiler speculation...
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.951216164604.12493A-100000@linda.teleport.com>


 On the inside page, it reads:
"  To Major General Lon E. Maggart, custodian of the future of mounted
operations in this and all possible futures that are worth a damn: Forge
the Thunderbolt!"
  Maggart is in the Reformation Coalition, right?(Hence, Maggart ships),
and the Thunderbolt is Imperial Army/Marines... So why is it associated
with him?
 Maybe it's just me, but I see a possible sign as to the times to come
from this statement.

Bri <bri@teleport.com>


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 21:21:57 -0500
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: Crunch Guns
Message-ID: <199512170221.VAA22431@chopin.udel.edu>

In Reply to Your Message of Sat, 16 Dec 1995 17: 10:29 EST
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 21:21:56 -0500
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: FF&S really breaks down when designing large caliber and small caliber
: weapons.  They make no allowence for materials technology really.  Like what
: if I want a wooden stock, or how about a composite laminate receiver, or a
: non-mettalic weapon?  These things just aren't addressed, then again
: compared to the Shadowrun Design system HA!, GURPS, HO, or any other game
: (Rifts anyone? hehehehheheheh) FF&S is the best hands down.  I mean at least
: we CAN argue about its failings, when most systems just don't have a system
: to argue about.

Some games say that we should concentrate on the characters and not
the goodies.  Hah, what do they know!  8)

: BTW: has anyone used 3G's weapons design system.  I have it, and am planning
: on trying it out over the holiday (I only get the 25th off).  I will let you
: know!

I worship it!  I love it because it allows me to create a weapons and
then convert them to my favorite games (TNE, MT, GURPS).  The only
thing is that I've had some problems converting some TNE weapons from
FFS to 3G^3.  Try designing the 10mm round for a snub pistol.
FFS=606j, 3G^3=900j.  Obviously something doesn't jive here.  Now to
find the fault (gives me something to do while I wait for Santa).

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 21:32:56 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re:  TRAVELLER digest 516
Message-ID: <9512170232.AA19864@qrc.com>

> From traveller@mpgn.com Sat Dec 16 16:49:34 1995
> Return-Path: <traveller@mpgn.com>
> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:47:30 -0500
> Errors-To: traveller-request@MPGN.COM
> Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Originator: traveller@mpgn.com
> Sender: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Precedence: bulk
> From: traveller@MPGN.COM
> To: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
> Subject: TRAVELLER digest 516
> X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
> X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List
>
>     TRAVELLER Digest 516
>
> Topics covered in this issue include:
>
>   1) Extraodinarily interesting concept...
> by "Bruce Johnson" <JOHNSON@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu>
>   2) Re: Question about Black Globes
> by "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 16:05:57 MST7
> From: "Bruce Johnson" <JOHNSON@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Extraodinarily interesting concept...
> Message-ID: <17116BB65F0@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
>
> Check out the web site:
>
> <A HREF="http://www-igpp.llnl.gov/papers/SHARP/"></A>
>
> This describes a two stage hypervelocity gun, that's been built at
> Lawrence Livermore National Labs.  They use it to test materials at
> extremely high pressures and velocities.  I think it's a fascinating
> concept for some of those downtrodden TED's to defend themselves from
> the RC, Virus, or just about anyone you want.
>
> I'll let their own words describe it:
>
> "In the fall of 1994 we had the opportunity to witness and
> participate in a series of hypervelocity experiments at the SHARP
> (Super High Altitude Research Project) facility at Lawrence
> Livermore National Lab. The SHARP gas gun is the largest two-stage
> light gas gun in the world and is used as a hypersonic research
> facility. Projectiles 1-10 kg in mass are fired horizontally into
> air, past high-speed diagnostic equipment (roughly 20 m flight path),
> and into a projectile-retaining area, a concrete bunker filled with
> sand. Recent experiments testing hypervelocity scram-jet engines
> provided us with the opportunity to conduct a hypervelocity impact
> experiment at no cost with a total energy (20 MJ) more than 3 orders
> of magnitude larger than previous studies. "
>
> 20 MJ at TL 8...heh heh heh...you have your basic drop ship assault
> going when KAH-WHOOM...your RC Cruiser is half gone, and there is no
> clear picture of where it came from...no sensor trace on any missile,
> no beam trace, just a gaping hole where your engineering section was.
>
> There are descriptions of the design of two stage guns in the Web
> page, as well as further bibliographic reference material.  Sounds
> like another thing the Guild might just sell those wealthier TEDS out
> there, like the 'crunch guns' (in the back of 'Path of
> Tears'...basically 14.5 mm sniper rifles) that are popping up.
>
> BTW, is anyone else as disgusted by the breakdown of the FFS rules
> for those rifles as I am...if they were designed with FFS?  They're
> about three times as heavy as real rifles of the type...69 kg!  The
> Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle in current use by the US armed forces is
> only 22 kg, and it's not much smaller (12.5 mm) than the 14.5 mm
> caliber of the crunch gun.
>
>
> Bruce Johnson
> Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
> The University of Arizona
> johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu
>
>
> As if this place HAD any opinions...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:14:20 GMT
> From: "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Question about Black Globes
> Message-ID: <140@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
>
>
> > > Another question, this one a little more wacky.  Can you operate
> > > a Black Globe in an atmosphere.  From reading FFS, I didn't think so,
> > > but wanted to know what everyone else thought.  I was thinking about
> > > vehicles with Black GLobes.  I don't think it is a practical idea,
> > > but it was one of those weird ideas that pop up while reading FFS.
> >
> > The FFS section on BGs states that if it comes in contact with anything
> > over 50tons (asteroids, planets, etc.) it blows up.
> >
> > -Merrick
> >
> It would certainly blow up if an asteroid passed through the globe, but the
> reason it explodes is that the matter passing through the globe is cooled to
> absolute zero, which for any appreciable mass is so high as to blow the
> capacitors. However, if a black globe was hovering stationary in the
> atmosphere, the mass passing through the globe through air diffusion might be
> low enough that it wouldn't blow up. As such the black globe could operate as 
a
> giant powerstation, extracting heat from the air and beaming the energy to
> terrestrial stations as the globe flickers. The visual impact of this sort of
> power station would be impressive, as liquified air falls from the bottom of
> the globe, precipitating water out of the atmosphere below to form a region of
> snow below. Worlds using this power source heavily might even cultivate a
> greenhouse effect to prevent excessive global cooling.
> In military situations it would be harder to use black globes, as movement
> would increase the energy traffic, and the globe would have a smaller margin
> with which to deal with enemy fire.
> --
> Brendan
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of TRAVELLER Digest 516
> ***************************
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 22:22:53 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: JOHNSON@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu
Subject: Re: Guns (Td#516)
Message-ID: <9512170322.AA20003@qrc.com>

[I'm sure this is a Frequently-Asked-Question by now, but I had to reply]

"Bruce Johnson" <JOHNSON@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu> wrote:
> Check out the web site:
> <A HREF="http://www-igpp.llnl.gov/papers/SHARP/"></A>

Cool!  There's other hyper-velocity research going on (I believe the Navy
is also doing some); there was an article about it in Smithsonian Air&Space
magazine a while back (I don't have the article handy).  It's nice to have
a current pointer to the data.

> [...] like the 'crunch guns' (in the back of 'Path of
> Tears'...basically 14.5 mm sniper rifles) that are popping up.

Yes; it's my feeling that RCES military-intervention scenarios are a a *lot*
more risky than portrayed in 'Path of Tears'.  Particularly if alerted to
the possibility of an invasion from space, societies from about TL-4 or 5
to TL-7 or 8 are quite capable of doing significant damage to TL-11+
spacebourne forces.

> BTW, is anyone else as disgusted by the breakdown of the FFS rules
> for those rifles as I am...if they were designed with FFS?

Yes.  The Crunch Gun was designed exactly to FF&S rules, as published.

> They're about three times as heavy as real rifles of the type...69 kg!

Actually, both 'Path of Tears' and the 'RC Equipment Guide' give the
weapon's mass as 53.787kg (loaded).  This is still more than twice
what it should be.  Most of the extra mass is in the reciever (which
masses more than the entire real-life weapon) and bipod.  FF&S makes
both of these components proportional to the muzzle energy, which is
probably *very* incorrect (particularly in the case of the bipod).

> The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle in current use by the US armed forces
> is only 22 kg, and it's not much smaller (12.5 mm) than the 14.5 mm
> caliber of the crunch gun.

The "Crunch Gun" *IS* a Soviet WWII-era PRTS-41 anti-armor rifle.

I know, because I'm the designer; it's uncredited in 'Path of Tears' but
should be properly credited in the RC Equipment Guide.

The mass *should* be 20.86kg empty, and 22.053kg loaded.

The PTRS-41 was the weapon for which the 14.5mm (that's about .57 cal)
BS-41 ammunition was originally designed.  The anti-armor rifle was
introduced in WWII, but the cartridge was retained after the war in the
KPV machinegun (where it is still used).  KPV ammunition is available
in Armor-Piercing Incendiary, Incendiary/Tracer, and Explosive.

If you're interested, the PTRS-41 design was originally sent to GDW
during the playtesting of FF&S as an example of what's wrong with
the FF&S small-arms design sequence.  FF&S produces *very* incorrect
results at the extremes of the design range; the closer you are to
a 'modern' assault rifle (such as the M-16), the more accurate the
numbers are.

If you're curious, here's the "Crunch Gun" design sheet (I had originally
dubbed it the "Poor Man's Fusion Gun", but I guess that didn't stick; the
indented text was included with the design in my submission to GDW, and
it may sound familiar to those of you who have read the 'Path of Tears'
scenarios):


        No longer do your TL-5, xenophobic natives have to cower
        in fear of Reformation Coalition backed Star Vikings.
        Have the local warlord call up a few squads of these "poor
        man's fusion guns".  With Ball ammunition (locally available
        at TL-5), they can penetrate TL-10 Battle Dress and any
        Combat Armor.

        With DS ammunition (a TL-8 item), these weapons have damage
        and penetration equal to (or better than, particularly at
        longer ranges) the FGMP-14 and FGMP-15 and can effectively
        defeat all forms of personal armor, as well as the side,
        deck, belly, and turret armor of the G-Carrier and the Grav Tank.

        Given their relative low cost, particularly when compared
        to their high-tech opponents Battle Dress (Cr220,000) and
        Fusion Gun (Cr54,000), these weapons are clearly very
        cost-effective.

Example 5: 14.5mm Protivotankovoe Ruzh'yo obr 1941g (PTRS-41)


ItemFF&S Value"Real-World" Value
 (note 1)(all values taken from published
BallDS real-world data except as noted)
I. Ammunition
Tech Level:5USSR circa 1941
Caliber:14.5mm14.5mm
Length:146.7mm114mm
Type:NeckedNecked, AP Incendiary
Overall Length:175.7mm?
Mass:242.25g201g
Average Energy:31007J31017J
Price:Cr12.1Cr24.2?

II. Weapon Design
  1. Barrel
Average Barrel:147.5cm139cm
Actual Barrel:139cm139cm
Type:Heavy
Weight:4.17kg?
Price:Cr1668?
Actual Energy:30123J31017J
Damage:1212* 12
Penetration:2-2-31-1-2* 2-2-3

  2. Receiver
Type:Light Self-LoaderSemi-Automatic
Length:95.5cm?
Mass:30.123kg?
Price:Cr6024.6?

  3. Stocks
Type:Wooden Rifle StockWooden stocks, carrying
Length:25cmhandles, and integral bipod.
Mass:1kg
Price:Cr25
Barrel Len Mod:0.9145* 1
Close Range:206.3m247.6m* 229.0m

  4. Feed System
Type:Box Magazine Internal Magazine, clip loaded
Capacity:55
Mass:1.308kg?
CostCr1309?
Loaded Mass:2.519kg1.193kg

  5. Options
? Total Mass:36.601kg (w/o bipod)22.053kg (with bipod)
? Total Length:259.5cm213.4cm
? Total Price:Cr9026.6?
Recoil:5 * 5
Bulk:17* 14
    b. Bipod
Bipod Mass:15.062
Bipod Cost:Cr200.6
Total Mass:51.663kg22.053kg
Total Cost:Cr9227.2
Recoil:3* 3

* Gaming data computed from real-world values with FF&S formulae.

        Notes:
        1 - Whenever two figures are given, the first is for ball
        (an option for Armor-Piercing Incendiary would have been
        nice) and the second is for the "high-tech" (TL-8)
        Discarding Sabot round.

        Comments:
        Yes, this really was a real gun.  Originally designed as
        a man portable, anti-tank small arms rifle by the Soviets
        during WWII, the gun was quickly outclassed by the rapidly
        improving armor protection of German tanks.

        The cartridge lives on as the ammuntion for the TL-6 KPV
        machinegun (found on many Soviet armored vehicles and
        anti-aircraft defenses).  The gas-operated action of this
        rifle (scaled down, of course) found its way into the SKS rifle.

        All in all, I'm not really very happy with this FF&S design;
        the weapon came out more than twice as heavy as it should
        have (a hundred-and-fifteen pound rifle).  I think the
        problem here is that the FF&S design system is too linear;
        if you push on the high end, you get guns that are much too
        big and heavy, and if you push on the low end, you get
        things like 10mm (cal) by 3mm (long) cartridges and guns
        that are much too light.

        Tactical Considerations:
        The close range of this weapon exceeds the extreme range of
        every fusion gun except the FGMP-14 and -15, and the short
        range equals or exceeds the extreme range of any of the
        fusion guns.  The best use of these weapons would be long
        range fire at the attackers, from behind cover (preferably
        cover strong enough to resist an extreme-range fusion gun
        strike) or sniping from outside the range of the enemy's
        weapons.  If this is impossible (and it frequently is),
        then a series protected positions likeley to suprise the
        enemy are good (around a corner in a corridor, for example).

        Game Use:
        This weapon (or rather, one using the "real world" stats
        and not the FF&S design, which is completely impractical)
        could be quite useful to anti-RC forces in the New Era.
        A relatively low-tech design, it is quite capable of being
        manufactured by many worlds in the Wilds.  Although the DS
        ammunition is probably going to be considerably harder to
        produce, there will probably be a number of worlds equipped
        with it.  As Star Viking activities expand, it is very
        likeley that traders operating in the wilds will find a
        demand for this type of weapon.

        Several adventure plotlines are possible around this weapon;
        one which suggests itself to me is probably obvious.  The
        players (RCES or 'Lancers) attempt a smash-n-grab on some
        TL-5 to TL-7 dictator.  They expect an easy time of it.

        Pull this one on your players after they've done two or three
        of the same type of missions in a row and have had a chance
        to get overconfident and complacent.  Suprise them with the
        weapon; without the DS ammunition, it shouldn't be too
        deadly, but should (if employed well) be able to prevent
        the PCs from accomplishing some or all of their objectives.

        Drive home to them in a practical sort of way how difficult
        their lives would be if lots of worlds had them.  Later
        developments in the campaign can involve efforts to stop
        free traders from spreading the guns (or the designs)
        around the area.  Another one might have to do with
        discovering that someone is producing DS ammunition.


The gun as shown above was later re-computed by Loren Wiseman to match
the design rules in FF&S as published (the design above was done to the
FF&S playtest rules which I had recieved), and the figures were rounded
for publication in 'Path of Tears' and the 'RC Equipment Guidebook'.

The credit for the design is missing from the 'Path of Tears' sourcebook
due to a failure of internal communications at GDW.  It was noticed and
corrected in time to be credited in the 'RC Equipment Guidebook'.

I urge everyone who is using the "Crunch Gun" in their campaigns to take
advantage of the real-world figures above, and change the weight and bulk
of the weapon to a more realistic figure.

Guy Garnett
wildstar@qrc.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                        "Terrorist on the TML"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 21:47:19 -0800 (PST)
From: toad@ugcs.caltech.edu (Benjamin Lane)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 516
Message-ID: <199512170547.VAA18646@avarice.ugcs.caltech.edu>

> 20 MJ at TL 8...heh heh heh...you have your basic drop ship assault
> going when KAH-WHOOM...your RC Cruiser is half gone, and there is no

whats the big deal about 20MJ? the muzzle energy of a high-velocity
16inch battleship gun is about that much, I would imagine..

Re; Black Globes in an atmosphere.
> >
> It would certainly blow up if an asteroid passed through the globe, but the
> reason it explodes is that the matter passing through the globe is cooled to
> absolute zero, which for any appreciable mass is so high as to blow the
> capacitors. However, if a black globe was hovering stationary in the
> atmosphere, the mass passing through the globe through air diffusion might be
> low enough that it wouldn't blow up. As such the black globe could operate as 
a
> giant powerstation, extracting heat from the air and beaming the energy to
> terrestrial stations as the globe flickers. The visual impact of this sort of
> power station would be impressive, as liquified air falls from the bottom of
> the globe, precipitating water out of the atmosphere below to form a region of
> snow below. Worlds using this power source heavily might even cultivate a
> greenhouse effect to prevent excessive global cooling.
> In military situations it would be harder to use black globes, as movement
> would increase the energy traffic, and the globe would have a smaller margin
> with which to deal with enemy fire.
> --
> Brendan
>

great idea. except that it violates the second law of thermodynamics.
you are turning low-grade heat into useful energy, and decreasing entropy.
not to mention that the amount of energy the globe would have to absorb
would be enormous. we are talking about a lot of molecules travelling rather
rapidly..
cheers,
/ben


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End of TRAVELLER Digest 517
***************************
